Folks - I had another propstrike on my engine.

Last time, my A&P sent it to an engine shop rather than doing the work
himself.

Experience has show that even if all the shop does is open and inspect,
it will cost me $3500. I need to try and get that cost down.

Of course, all this will have to be worked out with the shop.

Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
engine after a propstrike?

Question: How much work is a shop or mechanic likely to allow me to do
under his indirect supervision? Can I do something in front of him,
drag the engine home until I reach another milestone then perform that
in front of him?

Regards, Mike

On 22 Jul 2005 07:12:05 -0700, wrote:

>Folks - I had another propstrike on my engine.
>
>Last time, my A&P sent it to an engine shop rather than doing the work
>himself.
>
>Experience has show that even if all the shop does is open and inspect,
>it will cost me $3500. I need to try and get that cost down.
>
>Of course, all this will have to be worked out with the shop.
>
>Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
>have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
>engine after a propstrike?
>
>Question: How much work is a shop or mechanic likely to allow me to do
>under his indirect supervision? Can I do something in front of him,
>drag the engine home until I reach another milestone then perform that
>in front of him?
>
>Regards, Mike

you have a certified aeroplane, no? then it must be maintained and
certified by licenced personel.
dont confuse the freedoms of experimental aircraft ownership with the
legal responsibilities that come with certified aircraft.

as to the cost, a shonky job could cost you your life. paying for a
skilled person to fix the problem could end up being the cheapest
option.
(of course the cheapest option is to not keep on dinging the prop :-)
) if you were to do the job yourself do you know what needs to be
done?

the definitive answers to your questions above can only come from the
guy who will sign out the work, go and have a talk with him and
discuss your difficulty.

Stealth Pilot

What did you hit?

BJ

wrote:

>Folks - I had another propstrike on my engine.
>
>Last time, my A&P sent it to an engine shop rather than doing the work
>himself.
>
>Experience has show that even if all the shop does is open and inspect,
>it will cost me $3500. I need to try and get that cost down.
>
>Of course, all this will have to be worked out with the shop.
>
>Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
>have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
>engine after a propstrike?
>
>Question: How much work is a shop or mechanic likely to allow me to do
>under his indirect supervision? Can I do something in front of him,
>drag the engine home until I reach another milestone then perform that
>in front of him?
>
>Regards, Mike
>
>
>

I'm just curious, if the cost of the engine repairs are running you
into the $$$thousands$$
what does a course in engine repair cost and the cost of becoming an
A&P?
Lou

wrote:

> Folks - I had another propstrike on my engine.
>
> Last time, my A&P sent it to an engine shop rather than doing the work
> himself.
>
> Experience has show that even if all the shop does is open and inspect,
> it will cost me $3500. I need to try and get that cost down.
>
> Of course, all this will have to be worked out with the shop.
>
> Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
> have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
> engine after a propstrike?
>
> Question: How much work is a shop or mechanic likely to allow me to do
> under his indirect supervision? Can I do something in front of him,
> drag the engine home until I reach another milestone then perform that
> in front of him?

Question: How are you having so many prop strikes?


Matt

Thanks, like I said I was curious.
Lou

I'm not sure that is quite true. Anybody can do the work as long as an
IA signs it off in the logbook. The reason the mechanic sent it out is
probably to have the parts magnafluxed to check for tiny cracks. Not
many small shops are equipped for this...

Scott

Stealth Pilot wrote:


>
>
> you have a certified aeroplane, no? then it must be maintained and
> certified by licenced personel.
> dont confuse the freedoms of experimental aircraft ownership with the
> legal responsibilities that come with certified aircraft.
>

Scott - that makes sense, however even the local 'engine shop' (well
respected) sends the crank out for magnafluxing and for
zyco(something). like you say however, there are still specialized
tools my A&P would probably have to have.

- Mike

Scott > wrote:

>I'm not sure that is quite true. Anybody can do the work as long as an
>IA signs it off in the logbook. The reason the mechanic sent it out is
>probably to have the parts magnafluxed to check for tiny cracks. Not
>many small shops are equipped for this...
>
>Scott
>
>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> you have a certified aeroplane, no? then it must be maintained and
>> certified by licenced personel.
>> dont confuse the freedoms of experimental aircraft ownership with the
>> legal responsibilities that come with certified aircraft.
>>

Scott wrote:
> I'm not sure that is quite true. Anybody can do the work as long as an
> IA signs it off in the logbook.


Any Powerplant rated mechanic can do any inspection or repair to any
aircraft engine and return it to service within the limititations of FAR
part 65 and 43 which I've posted below. The only "major" repairs
requiring IA approval are structural repairs to the engine, or involve
engines with internal geared superchargers or planetary reduction gears.

Furthermore, YOU can disassemble, inspect and reassemble the engine
yourself as long as a certified Powerplant mechanic "directly"
supervises you and signs off the work in the logbook. You can also
legally "inspect" the engine by doing a runout of the prop flange, or
you can legally blow it off altogether.

This is the relevant service bulletin for a prop strike. It is a
"mandatory" service bulletin, however it is not mandated by the FAA thru
an AD the way the Lycoming prop strike service bulletin is. Aircraft
are only required by the FAA to comply with all service bulletins if
operated to FAR part 135.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SB96-11.pdf

This response is based on the references I have included and cited
herin. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this information, but
only if you can cite references the way I have.

On 4/24/2001, a Cessna 210 with a Continental IO 520 suffered a broken
crankshaft. Everybody died. The aircraft had suffered a prop strike
four years before, and while the propeller was overhauled, no SB-95-11
inspection was performed on the engine, no runout of the prop flange was
recorded, no laws were broken, no mechanics were fired. It's entirely
up to the owner/operator whether the inspection is performed.


From FAR Part 65, section 65.87:

Sec. 65.87

Powerplant rating; additional privileges.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated
mechanic with a powerplant rating may approve and return to service a
powerplant or propeller or any related part or appliance, after he has
performed, supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration
(excluding major repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may
perform the 100-hour inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on a
powerplant or propeller, or any part thereof, and approve and return it
to service.
[(b) A certificated mechanic with a powerplant rating can approve and
return to service a powerplant or propeller, or any related part or
appliance, of an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate in
the light-sport category after performing and inspecting a major repair
or major alteration for products that are not produced under an FAA
approval, provided the work was performed in accordance with
instructions developed by the manufacturer or a person acceptable to the
FAA. ]


From FAR Part 43 Appendix A:
(2) Powerplant major repairs. Repairs of the following parts of an
engine and repairs of the following types, are powerplant major repairs:
(i) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a
reciprocating engine equipped with an integral supercharger.
(ii) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a
reciprocating engine equipped with other than spur-type propeller
reduction gearing.
(iii) Special repairs to structural engine parts by welding, plating,
metalizing, or other methods.

Scott wrote:
> I'm not sure that is quite true. Anybody can do the work as long as an
> IA signs it off in the logbook. The reason the mechanic sent it out is
> probably to have the parts magnafluxed to check for tiny cracks. Not
> many small shops are equipped for this...
>
> Scott
>
> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> you have a certified aeroplane, no? then it must be maintained and
>> certified by licenced personel.
>> dont confuse the freedoms of experimental aircraft ownership with the
>> legal responsibilities that come with certified aircraft.
>>


--
John Kimmel


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."

Theodore Roosevelt

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> Scott - that makes sense, however even the local 'engine shop' (well
> respected) sends the crank out for magnafluxing and for
> zyco(something). like you say however, there are still specialized
> tools my A&P would probably have to have.
>
> - Mike
>
>

Zyglo may show cracks in aluminum, which is what it's for, while magnaflux
is for steel. Sometimes it takes another process like ultrasound or x-ray
to show something.

Send your engine to a good rebuild shop like Triad in Burlington, NC.
There are too many pitfalls trying to do it yourself or having a local do it
who's not tooled up. Even breaking an engine in improperly can ruin your
cylinders, whereas a reputable shop will break it in for you in a test cell.
If a car or motorcycle engine fails you just walk away. If an aircraft
engine fails ...

The crank needs a magnaflux inspection that a A&P usually doesn't own.

On 2005-07-22 10:12:05 -0400, said:

> Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
> have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
> engine after a propstrike?

As (until recently) one of the owners of an FAR 145 Repair Station, I
can tell you that while you may be certified to work on engines it
isn't always a good idea. Just to tear down and reassemble an engine
properly requires both tools and perishable skills that not every A&P
may have on hand.

An engine shop can probably dismantle, inspect, and reassemble that
engine, faster and with more confidence than your own mechanic, even if
your guy has the tools and the confidence. It may actually cost you
less for your mechanic to send it out, which doesn't seem to be an
option you've considered.

One of my many lessons learned is that customers who are trying to
maintain their aircraft on a shoestring need to be kept far away from
your shop.

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

"Kevin O'Brien" <kevin@org-header-is-my-domain-name> wrote in message
news:2005081317121511272%kevin@orgheaderismydomain name...
> On 2005-07-22 10:12:05 -0400, said:
>
> > Question: Why did my A&P send the engine out? I understand it might
> > have been a workload problem, but arn't A&Ps allowed to inspect an
> > engine after a propstrike?
>
> As (until recently) one of the owners of an FAR 145 Repair Station, I
> can tell you that while you may be certified to work on engines it
> isn't always a good idea. Just to tear down and reassemble an engine
> properly requires both tools and perishable skills that not every A&P
> may have on hand.
>
> An engine shop can probably dismantle, inspect, and reassemble that
> engine, faster and with more confidence than your own mechanic, even if
> your guy has the tools and the confidence. It may actually cost you
> less for your mechanic to send it out, which doesn't seem to be an
> option you've considered.
>
> One of my many lessons learned is that customers who are trying to
> maintain their aircraft on a shoestring need to be kept far away from
> your shop.
>
> cheers
>
> -=K-POOH=-
>
> Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.
>

I watch people rebuild their certified engines and shake my head when the
crank and bearings make metal or something goes bad in the bottom or top.

I don't know how many times I have seen a hamfisted rebuilder trash a ring
while trying to squeeze the rings and ram the jug onto the piston. It's a
job demanding finesse, cleanliness, the right tools, plenty lubricating oil
all over the moving surfaces, and meticulous attention to a hundred details.
The manual is not good enough; you need the SB's too, plus all the lore not
in the SB's.

However. I couldn't fly if I didn't do my own work. Under the watchful
eyes of an IA, of course. (Who, btw, has signed me off to take the A&P
exam.) I just did a top on an A-65 that was sticking a valve and blowing
blue smoke. So far so good: the pistons were cleaned and new rings
installed in honed cylinders. So far, after the overhaul and carefully
tracking the prop with the trial-and-error use of several half-moons of
mylar, the little A-65 now runs as smooth as silk, flies like an angel,
doesn't make blue smoke, has great compression and produces textbook power
on static runup; but there were a few problems with the previous rebuild
done by an A&P/IA. The sticking exhaust valve had zero lash, so we had to
take .035 of the top of the valve stem to get that .030 to .110 dry
clearance in the valve train and make the hydraulic lifter happy. Another
valve was too tight, but we went through about 20 pushrods until we found
one just the right length.

Fingers crossed.

It's not a major repair to rebuild an engine. That said, though, the
rebuilder had better do it with due care. It's a religious ritual. Or
maybe end up in the trees.

The certified engine shops have an advantage over the field rebuilder.
They have all the right tools, plus a big plan and a track record, plus the
equipment and test cell and club prop to break the engine in and keep it
cool while the rings seat. Fresh cylinders, pistons, and rings are very
unhappy when the newly rebuilt engine cranks. And they stay unhappy for a
while. Take a look at the manual where it suggests you monitor the CHT of
your hottest cylinder. When the temperature comes down, your rings are
seated. Theoretically. That is NOT a suggestion; that's an order.

From my tool and die maker friend I borrow a garden sprayer rigged to
pre-pressurize the oil in the engine so the needle on the oil pressure gauge
moves up to twenty pounds or so -- before ever cranking the rebuilt engine.
There's one at 0A7 you pump 30 pounds of pressure into with compressed air.
That one will send oil into every nook and cranny.

I regularly fly a 172 from the fifties. Just a wonder of an airplane, with
barndoor flaps and the legendary coveted Johnson bar. The engine was
rebuilt by our tool and die maker who understands what makes the Continental
tick. So it makes great power and goes. And is dependable. But we got
it quickly into the air without a lot of taxiing and runups and kept the
engine cool while the rings were seating. And there we stayed over the
airport for a good 45 minutes for the first run. If the engine had taken
the abuse I have seen heaped on a fresh engine roaring on the ground,
overheating and glazing the cylinders, it would never have performed the way
it has --- and the way it keeps its oil on the bottom end and doesn't pump
it up into the combustion chambers or blow crap out the vent hose onto the
belly because of blowby.

With the A-65 I got the oil pressure up, pushed the aircraft from the ramp
to the runway, cranked it, and rushed off into the cool air in a shallow
climb as soon as the engine showed it made book power. Pure heaven.

For you who have not enjoyed the priceless inexpressible thrill of winging
through the air @4 gallons an hour and 100 mph in an A-65-powered
Taylorcraft with that wonderful zippy airfoil and responsive controls and
the eternal risk of groundlooping when you put down, well, I pity you.

BTW, if you don't want to stick a valve, and you will probably do it sooner
or later with a Lycoming or Continental, put a little Avblend or that other
stuff in your crankcase. That's advice from a good ol' A&P who used to
maintain a fleet of 180 and 185 seaplanes. He said the other seaplane
bases on the big lake always wanted to know his secret, they stuck so many
valves, so that's it.

Well stated, particularily the groundlooping part :)- Mike

" jls" > wrote:
>
>For you who have not enjoyed the priceless inexpressible thrill of winging
>through the air @4 gallons an hour and 100 mph in an A-65-powered
>Taylorcraft with that wonderful zippy airfoil and responsive controls and
>the eternal risk of groundlooping when you put down, well, I pity you.
>

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> Well stated, particularily the groundlooping part :)- Mike
>
> " jls" > wrote:
> >
> >For you who have not enjoyed the priceless inexpressible thrill of
winging
> >through the air @4 gallons an hour and 100 mph in an A-65-powered
> >Taylorcraft with that wonderful zippy airfoil and responsive controls and
> >the eternal risk of groundlooping when you put down, well, I pity you.
> >
>

The Devil is in the details. There's something more relevant to your
subject line. IMHO, when you have a propstrike with a wooden prop the
damage is usually less to the crank and you have a better chance of no
damage at all. An aluminum prop will put more stress on the crank and case
when there's a strike. Before sending the crank off for that necessary
yellow tag, which includes having it magnafluxed and checked for other
damage like runout and deep scoring, I do a little looking with a magnifying
glass, mikes, and a dial indicator. Some of those engine shops are more
demanding than others. One will condemn the crank while another will pass
it.

I know of a crank that came back because the shop said it had too many deep
corrosion pits in the flange. When it went to another shop, it got a
yellow tag.

One shop "cooked" a nitrided crank and straightened it so that it came back
within runout limits and had a yellow tag attached. It's good to know which
shop to go to.

We once had an old A&P who got the local auto engine shops to grind the
crank and check it for cracks. No yellow tag, of course. Some people go
that route but it's dangerous. More than a few cranks have been ruined by
shops who didn't understand the necessity of radius in the fillets.

And, yes, with a propstrike, you ought to have the crankcase checked out
too. If the engine has enough hours on it, go ahead and rebuild it.

At an airport nearby there was a 210 with a beautiful rebuilt O-470 engine
from a nearby repair station. It was painted Continental gold and was just
installed. As soon as everything was wired and buttoned up, one of the
guys took the aircraft aloft and when he dropped the gear for landing, the
nosegear was stuck. They tried everything to get it down, but no luck.
The engine had less than an hour on it and had to go right back to the
engine shop for a propstrike teardown. Besides that, the owner (or
somebody) had to buy expensive nosegear doors.